(www.sass-pants.com) — On Thursday morning, my mom sent me a text message:
Why can’t you celebrate thanksgiving if when the Bible was written it hadn’t happened yet and we’re giving thanks to God?
It’s a logical question since I stopped celebrating holidays mainly for religious reasons. God = religion, right? Except, there’s more to it than that.
Widely regarded as an all-American holiday, Thanksgiving Day is commonly believed to commemorate the Pilgrims’ survival of a hard winter and successful harvest early after their arrival in America. But is there more to this holiday tradition? I say yes.
Harvest festivals date back thousands of years, and were traditionally a time to give expressions of gratitude and sacrifices to various gods in appreciation of a bountiful growing season. Fall Equinox, which generally falls around September 21 or 22 in America, is a popular time for harvest festivals and has been associated with celebrations in cultures around the world including druids, Mayans, Native Americans and others, and included ceremonial activities such as fertility rituals and burnt offerings.
Obviously today the Thanksgiving celebration doesn’t have a direct correlation with a single pagan ritual, but it evokes many of these traditions. For instance, the Thanksgiving cornucopia started as a hollowed goat’s horn filled with fruits, vegetables, and grains. This practice is rooted in Greek mythology, a legend in which goat Amalthea broke off one of her horns and offered it to king of the gods, Zeus, as a sign of reverence.
The Roman celebration Cerelia, honoring the goddess Ceres, goddess of corn, occurred annually on October 4 and included a thanksgiving feast. Romans also had a annual day of thanksgiving each December. The autumn celebration of Thesmosphoria honored the Greek goddess Demeter, goddess of grains, and also included a feast. Native American tradition recognized a variety of fall harvest festivals associated with the moon cycle and including feasting days as well.
Although modern-day Thanksgiving celebrations may not directly deal with pagan traditions, pagan origins are clear in Thanksgiving practices, which may be cause for concern for folks, like me, who feel that believers cannot drink from the cup of demons and the cup of God at the same time (see 1 Corinthians 10:20-22) and that true and false worship can have no common ground (see 2 Corinthians 6:15, 16).
For those who are nonreligious, or who view Thanksgiving as only a family tradition rather than a real holiday, there is still cause for concern, in my opinion, in the excess that Thanksgiving has come to encourage. In most Thanksgiving celebrations, the focus is on food — more of it than any household needs — football, and the upcoming shopping season rather than on gratitude. In my eyes, that’s hypocrisy, an excuse for a party, not a sincere display of unselfish gratitude to a higher power.
Do I like eating turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, and sweet potatoes? You betcha. They’re delicious. Do I like time off from work? Heck yeah. Do I (and my bank account) enjoy big sales? Um, duh, yes. And do I try to show my gratitude to God every day? Yes, I do. But having warm and fuzzy feelings about poultry dishes, sleeping in, liking big discounts, and thinking it’s important to show gratitude to my Creator still don’t mean I’m going to be participating in the Thanksgiving holiday, but thanks for asking. Repeatedly. Every year. And not just my mom, for the record.
There are lots of things now that weren’t around when the Bible was written (Internet porn, anyone?) but the principles it contains and the instructions it offers are still relevant, and I would argue that they’re vital. The Bible is clear on how we should worship: in spirit and truth (see John 4:24). And I don’t think Thanksgiving is truly about being thankful to God at all, which is why I don’t celebrate it.
Still have questions? Leave a comment. I promise to be nice. Unless you’re a jerk, in which case I reserve the right to mock you politely.
Contents Copyright © 2008 Kristen King
{ 21 comments… read them below or add one }
I can understand the thinking here, the quest to get down to unadulterated traditions and religion. I also know others who don’t celebrate holidays for reasons related to consumerism. But whether its holidays or theology or holy book translations, I think searching for the part that is pure is like peeling an onion. No matter how many layers you remove, you never find a center that is untouched by the other parts.
V-Grrrl’s last blog post..Art Journal
Interesting topic… I understand clearly where you’re coming from – and more! Being a “American Tradition,” it has a tendency to put the US on a pedistal above other nations, making it, in my opinion, nationalistic; a ‘holiday’ that promotes one nation above another – subtly, but nonetheless. Should not all peoples be ‘thankful’ to their creator? If your answer is ‘yes’, then shouldn’t that thanks be done in a way that is acceptable to him? How would you know what is acceptable other than studying what he’s provided (Jn 17:3) (MY opinion – based strictly on what the Bible says)
@V-Grrrl, you hit the nail on the head: “No matter how many layers you remove, you never find a center that is untouched by the other parts.” That is EXACTLY why I don’t celebrate any holidays. I’ll cover the others as the come.
@MIKCTR, excellent point. Although I feel grateful to live in a country where I can practice my own religion without fear of persecution (well, at least not government-sanctioned persecution, anyway), I’m not interested in turning that gratitude into nationalistic activities that imply that my country is better than any other. It’s not. Thanks for bringing this up.
“amber’s uncle saw how amber looked like him and like her father.”
i believe that the essence of a holiday is something that can, indeed, be touched – if not through the traditions that one grew up with, than through the meditations one endeavors to practice within one’s self.
when your mom and others ask you if you want to participate in thanksgving, maybe this is an expression of the desire to be together to share an occasion that is familiar, to be in each others’ company.
if the traditional thanksgiving/holiday way of doing that isn’t comfortable and/or satisfactory with respect to the practice of your faith, maybe finding an alternative day for reunion – to break from work, to enjoy a meal – would satisfy both you and your family. then the focus would be clear: to remind yourself of your family resemblances :]
“…learning new ways from the old, and making sense of history, and drawing warmth out of the cold…” yeah?
<3 tss.
Alternate days to show appreciation and to get together is great and people really should strive to stay close to their families and friends. I can’t IMAGINE, however, anyone would like to get together and dress in drab green with little bent red crosses on their sleeves, greet one another with a raised flat hand (facing down, otherwise it might be confused with one of the original American salutes…. lol), and gather on April 12. So what if it’s Adolph Hitler’s birthday and everyone is doing the same dispicable things he did, we’ll call it “Happy Family Day” and anyone who doesn’t celebrate it should be gassed.
Doesn’t make a lot of sense, does it….? But the same things are done all the time. Worse yet, they are done claiming to bring honor to God….
mikctr,
i’m not suggesting an alternative holiday, such as “happy family day.” the aim of my post was to point out that people have a variety of purposes for participating in holidays – some of which have to do with god, or religious worship, others of which have to do with a simple desire to be reunited with family one may rarely see.
if we recognize this breadth of purposes, perhaps the repeated invitation to thanksgiving dinner, etc. is something that can reveal itself as a slightly different request: come home & visit with me, etc.
i think we can find ways to respect ourselves and our personal choices, while seeking ways to honor the desire for family-unity that holiday celebrations often encourage among those who celebrate them – i meant to suggest that we can do this by seeking a neutral context, other than the holiday table or game day, to spend time together.
i post this with a goal of peace-finding, not one of waging war.
best wishes. tss.
*tss*’s last blog post..part two: sitting on a bag of frozen green beans, (or: the coefficient of friction)
Great discussion, y’all. For those who don’t know, the lyrics TSS is quoting are from Dar Williams’ “The Christians and the Pagans,” which you can read in full here: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6s3e7t
@MIKCTR, that’s an extreme example, but it demonstrates the point well. Thanks. My point is, if you’re going to watch football and gorge yourself on food, say you’re doing that. Don’t call it Thanksgiving and suggest that I’m a treasonous ingrate if I don’t want to participate. Again, extreme, but also something that’s happened to me! Paraphrased, of course.
@tss, I don’t mean to suggest that I don’t like spending time with my family. I enjoy family dinners and warm feelings and opportunities to get together. But as V-Grrrl said so eloquently, these things are like onions that have many, many layers, and there is no way for the center to remain untouched by the other parts, other parts that I don’t want to be associated with. These are MY reasons for not coming to Thanksgiving dinner. The invitations don’t bother me. The implication that I am somehow LESS because I choose not to participate in something that has elements that offend me is what does. It’s not the same for everyone, and I recognize that. I mean, I wear leather, and some people would rather die than wear or consume in any way something that comes from and animal. I don’t get that, but I would never try to force them to wear animal products or give them fur coats as gifts on a regular basis as a way to try to guilt them into doing it. You know what I mean? The belief may be different, but the structure of it is the same. Am I making any sense?
For the sake of discussion, is it really an extreme example? Let’s take Christmas: It is commonly viewed as a religious holiday – even by non-”Christians” – celebrating the birth of Jesus, right? However, nowhere in the Bible is anyone ever told to celebrate his birth. In fact, at that time, even birthdays were not celebrated among the Jews and early Christians because of their pagan origns. So already we have people celebrating a day Jesus didn’t and wouldn’t have done, and being done to ‘honor’ him. It gets worse: His date of birth is not December 25….. December 25 was chosen to ‘replace’ other pagan fesivals directly associated with sun worship. Now the celebration has become one that Jesus wouldn’t have done and being celebrated on a day that was in honor of a pagan god. Add to that the ‘traditions’ being done to ‘honor’ Jesus and look at their origns. It should not be difficult to view from his perspective with empathy. It’s still an onion after removing layer upon layer – it’s STILL an onion….
So, I ask: Is the comparison with celebrating “Family Day” on Hitler’s birthday and using disgusting traditions reeeeely an extreme example? Or is it an accurate example (although probably not as PC as people would prefer) of the reality of an attempt to honor someone using traditions that actually DIShonor them? Most people would be apalled if their family, friends and loved ones chose to celebrate thier birth on a day that was not theirs, but a day of someone they loathed (and is very loath-able), and then did it using customs and traditions that are discusting in their eyes.
M – Describing the celebration of Thanksgiving as having any resemblance to naziism does not fall into the impersonal category of either being or not being politically correct. The direction you take is insulting to me and suggests that my views on holidays, being different from yours, are somehow categorically equivalent to a celebration related to a movement that completely devalued human lives. That is not politically incorrect – it is personally insulting. It is a sign to me that you are more comfortable relying on hyperbole to reach the conclusions you have already determined are correct in your own mind than you are risking the act of listening honestly to a perspective dissimilar to your own – one which has absolutely nothing to do with hate, one which does not attempt to dehumanize anyone, one which is ignited by a desire to inspire tolerance and mutual respect.
KK -
YOU: @tss, I don’t mean to suggest that I don’t like spending time with my family. I enjoy family dinners and warm feelings and opportunities to get together. But as V-Grrrl said so eloquently, these things are like onions that have many, many layers, and there is no way for the center to remain untouched by the other parts, other parts that I don’t want to be associated with. These are MY reasons for not coming to Thanksgiving dinner.
ME: I didn’t intend to suggest that you should participate in Thanksgiving. That was not the point of either of my comments. I completely agree that your reasons, whatever they are for not participating in Thanksgiving, are your reasons & that you have a right to them.
YOU: The invitations don’t bother me. The implication that I am somehow LESS because I choose not to participate in something that has elements that offend me is what does.
ME: You know what, this completely resonates with me. Thank you for restating this so clearly. I feel like this element was present in your initial blog, but frankly, it was disguised by sarcasm – the tone, for me, suggested annoyance and frustration… but not so much the flat out hurt and disappointment that comes through here.
YOU: It’s not the same for everyone, and I recognize that. I mean, I wear leather, and some people would rather die than wear or consume in any way something that comes from and animal. I don’t get that, but I would never try to force them to wear animal products or give them fur coats as gifts on a regular basis as a way to try to guilt them into doing it. You know what I mean? The belief may be different, but the structure of it is the same. Am I making any sense?
ME: You are making sense, and, again, this does resonate very clearly. It is not only disrespectful, but belittling of another’s choices & beliefs to repeatedly offer, recommend, insist, etc. something that is forbidden by that person’s choices & beliefs.
The comments I have left here are not meant to be a criticism of your religious views and the decisions that you make in accord with them. They are meant, however, to point out that, with respect to holidays specifically, the intentions of those who extend invitations seem very likely multi-dimensional. I would be really surprised to learn, for example, that some element of your mother’s insistent invitations isn’t the sheer, unadulterated desire to have a day during which she is surrounded by all of he people she loves – including you.
Her insistence, and that of others, sounds like it is insulting and hurtful to you, and I can fully appreciate that. The purpose of my posts was to bring into the conversation the fact that, for those of us who do celebrate holidays – or Thanksgiving in particular, the perception of an extended invitation is something which can not be summed up in a choice between drinking from the cup of demons or that of God. As insulting as the repeated invitations may be, this summary of the holiday experience:
But having warm and fuzzy feelings about poultry dishes, sleeping in, liking big discounts, and thinking it’s important to show gratitude to my Creator still don’t mean I’m going to be participating in the Thanksgiving holiday, but thanks for asking.
… is likewise insulting for those who do choose to have holiday celebrations in their lives. It may be YOUR view of holiday celebration, but it is not a complete view, and in my opinion, it is not a fair portrait. If it is a portrait of your experience of holidays with your family, I think it would be appropriate to navigate that issue a little more exactly, rather than generalizing the function of a holiday celebrated by however many billions of people participate in it, each with his or her own understanding of what is involved and for what purpose.
oops! “billions” should have read millions.
*tss*’s last blog post..part two: sitting on a bag of frozen green beans, (or: the coefficient of friction)
@MIKCTR, I think this eloquently summarizes the point you were trying to make, “Most people would be apalled if their family, friends and loved ones chose to celebrate thier birth on a day that was not theirs, but a day of someone they loathed (and is very loath-able), and then did it using customs and traditions that are discusting in their eyes.” But I still think Hitler is an extreme example, if for no other reason than it’s unlikely that any significant number of people would agree to a celebration on his birthday. The thing about Christmas and Saturnaila is that the Christian label was attached to existing pagan customs to make them “acceptable” by relabeling them rather than changing them; it wasn’t a NEW celebration. A new celebration surrounding Hitler wouldn’t happen now, for the reasons TSS pointed out. With the proportionally small number of people who think Hitler knew what was what and deny the Holocaust, I think he’s a pretty solidly hated figure on a global basis. Dig?
@TSS, I think billions works, actually; other nations have thanksgiving celebrations, so the principles would largely apply in those. But duly noted all the same.
I really appreciate your frank observations and penetrating questions. Thanks for an excellent discussion that is helping me to more clearly articulate my feelings on this matter. I’m glad what I’m saying makes sense, and I appreciate your suggestion that I consider navigating these issues more exactly. Navigating my life is a big part of what I hope to do with this blog, so you can expect to see more of that in the future.
You’re right that what I described is my experience with holidays in my family and those people around me in my life, family and otherwise. I recognize that it may not be how everyone celebrates Thanksgiving, but it’s how those people do, and how the holiday is portrayed in mainstream media and entertainment as well, so I know others can relate to that depiction. Although it may not encompass everyone’s traditions, that’s not the point of this discussion, so I don’t want to get into that. ANY celebration of the Thanksgiving holiday is not something I’ll participate in or contribute to, so in terms of my point, it’s not relevant. But I hear you, I do.
I’m not trying to interfere with what other people do; I simply don’t want to be part of it. This is MY moral choice, just like with the leather issue I mentioned in an earlier comment. If you don’t want to wear leather, no problem. I’m not going to try to force them to wear animal products. Or if the roles are reversed, I’m not going to berate them or, worse, damage their property because I disagree with the fact that THEY wear animal products. It’s their choice. And I’m not asking people to stop doing it. I’m asking them to stop involving me. Me not doing Thanksgiving or whatever else doesn’t mean I’m opposed to family gatherings. It means I’m opposed to holidays. There’s a difference. I know you recognize that, but I feel a need to assert it clearly and explicitly. They are not the same thing
Unless someone presses the issue, I don’t generally bring up the reasons behind my refusal to participate in holiday celebrations. Generally, I say something like, “That is so kind of you, but I’m going to pass. I actually don’t celebrate holidays. But I hope you enjoy your time off and get to spend some good time with your family.” Or whatever is appropriate to how they spend their holiday time. With most people, that’s sufficient. No harm, no foul, no hurt feelings.
I was trying to think of another religious example that might be more familiar to the general public. Here’s what I came up with: Imagine, for instance, the first time you’re invited to someone’s house for dinner, they serve ham and you don’t eat pork for religious reasons. They didn’t know so they had no idea, you explain briefly that you keep Kosher and help yourself to the side dishes, no problem. But they roll their eyes and sigh about it. And then the next time they invite you over, they serve ham again. And you’re the only guest. Maybe they forgot, no problem, you eat sides again and it’s fine, and when they ask why you’re not eating the ham, you politely remind them that you don’t eat pork because it’s not Kosher. But it happens the time after that, too, and again they say, “Why aren’t you eating the ham?” and sigh and roll their eyes and slam the plates together as they clear the table. And then the next time, there’s no pork in sight, but the hostess pulls you aside afterward and confesses that she snuck bacon into the cream of potato soup because it’s so small and it tastes so good, and you don’t mind, right?
Of course you would mind. I would, anyway. When someone acknowledges a belief that is central to your being and then systematically blows it off and acts like you’re an inconvenience and you need to change, that’s not cool. It may be acknowledging, but it’s not accepting or respecting. It’s not even tolerating, in my opinion. Disagreeing, asking questions, expressing frustration, not understanding: all okay. Deliberately and forcefully ignoring others’ explicit requests and beliefs: not okay. If you don’t eat pork and I know you don’t eat pork and I continually try to serve you pork anyway, I don’t get to have hurt feelings about it when you turn me down, bring your own food to my house, or stop coming over entirely.
Although the first and last few paragraphs about this post are about my mom since she’s the one who raised the question, the post as a whole and the issue of repeated invitations isn’t about her specifically. It’s about my experience of family members and others acknowledging my beliefs and steamrolling them because it’s inconvenient for them in some way. It’s about other people, family and strangers alike, taking personal affront to the statement, “No thanks, I don’t celebrate holidays,” and trying to bully me either implicitly or explicitly to do it anyway. And it’s not limited to this situation. People do it all the time, with religious beliefs, political opinions, parenting choices, social behaviors, etc. Saying you recognize something and actually recognizing it are very, very different, but somehow that has become lost to us.
tss.
I appologize if I have offended you. I most certainly do not write as eloquently as Kristin! (She’s awesome!) My intention is not to offend, but to provide a different perspective along with reasoning for that perspective – V-Grrrl’s perspective was probably stated in a more palitable way: “I think searching for the part that is pure is like peeling an onion. No matter how many layers you remove, you never find a center that is untouched by the other parts.”
I, personally, do not have a problem with anything anyone does. There are things people do that I don’t like, but it’s not up to me have a problem with it (I’ve got enouh of my own… ;o). Globally accepted facts show where most of the celebrations mankind celebrates come from. As Kristin pointed out from the Bible: “…believers cannot drink from the cup of demons and the cup of God at the same time (see 1 Corinthians 10:20-22) and… true and false worship can have no common ground (see 2 Corinthians 6:15, 16).” The nation of Israel had a “fesival to the LORD” and were punnished severly for it because HOW they did it was absolutely unacceptable to him (Gen. 32:5,9). Christians are told to ‘keep on making sure of what is acceptable’. Now, whether one chooses to believe what the Bible states or not is absolutely up to them!
Like I said, I didn’t mean to offend. Sometime, however, a veiwpoint of another person can be offensive – even when it’s not meant to be. I chose not to be offended at other’s perspectives. I’ll take what they have to say into consideration, look at the resoning for the viewpoint and either agree or disagree. If you do not agree with what I say, that is way cool with me. I’m not offended if anyone chooses to celebrate ANY holiday
)
Kristin,
My point with the whole Hitler thing is exacly what you’re saying:
“But I still think Hitler is an extreme example, if for no other reason than it’s unlikely that any significant number of people would agree to a celebration on his birthday.”
If something like this would be so unacceptable and distasteful (as it obviously is…), why would the celebration of a powerless pagan diety the userps the honor of the Creator be ANY less unacceptable or distasteful? Is it that Hitler’s birthday is still too new history for people to find the celebration thereof acceptable, or is it too easy to forget the real meaning behind the origns of the false gods and how the worship of them affects the true God? Is the celebration of anything on April 12 UNacceptable because of it’s association while December 25 is – regardless of it’s association?
Hitler may be pretty hated on a global basis by the vast majority of mankind, but imagine how hated false worship is to the Creator on a universal basis. Hitler was merely a small part of a much larger picture….(Rev 18 (note the last verse)).
Just food for thought. You know me…..
Thanks, MIKCTR and Kristen, for your latest posts. I feel, personally, that the tone of this exchange has been taking a more and more positive direction & I appreciate everyone’s continued, active, and articulate effort to examine their own ideas and feelings while interfacing with the challenges presented by others’ posts.
In terms of the on-going question of Hitler’s relevance here: My perspective remains unshaken…
There is a definite and significant difference between
a.] a movement that strips humanity from designated groups of people and is founded on a thesis of hate, and
b.] the celebrations and other manifestations of religious and/or cultural practices that could be considered “false worship” in terms of the tenets of any given religion.
With respect to this passage from MIKCTR:
Hitler may be pretty hated on a global basis by the vast majority of mankind, but imagine how hated false worship is to the Creator on a universal basis. Hitler was merely a small part of a much larger picture….(Rev 18 (note the last verse)).
I’d like to add that I simply and adamantly disagree that human beings’ hate of Hitler can be balanced against God’s hate of false worship. [The fact that the notion that God "hates" sends shivers down my spine is something I only slightly leave aside here. With all due respect, I think that when we allow ourselves to imagine God as a being that harbors HATE, we are making a very serious and painful mistake.] Please help me see this more clearly if I have misunderstood… If there is a verse from the Bible that you are referring to with respect to God & hate & false worship, I’d be interested to see the verse.
Rock on, all.
*tss*’s last blog post..make words with mouth
@TSS and @MIKCTR, I’ll let you two duke out the Hitler thing, as I’ve already said my piece on that. But here are some relevant scriptures to answer your question, TSS, all from the commonly used New International Version (NIV). All links go to BibleGateway.com, where you can use the drop-down menu to compare translations if you like.
Regarding hate:
- Proverbs 6:16-19 (http://tinyurl.com/27bhso)
- Psalm 5:4-5 (http://tinyurl.com/5ey94m)
- Psalm 45:6-7 (http://tinyurl.com/54wt6b)
- Malachi 2:16 (http://tinyurl.com/6enzag)
These make it clear that God loves as well as hates, and that he expects his followers to hate what he hates and love what he loves. Logically, it makes sense: you can’t love both good and evil. And you can’t please God if you love evil or are just indifferent to it (see Rev 3:16 at http://tinyurl.com/2e7s8z). So you must hate evil. And the Bible lays out very clearly what we are to consider as evil.
As humans, we don’t have the ability to read people’s hearts, so it’s not our job to judge or hate individuals (see Matthew 7:1 at http://tinyurl.com/2jvp4o); judgment and vengeance belong to God, not man (see Romans 12: 17-21 at http://tinyurl.com/68ldzl). But it is our job to hate what God tells us to hate (and I can provide scriptural references for all of these, but I don’t want to get crazy with links here): murder, sexual immorality, spiritism (false worship), idolatry (false worship), stealing, lying, greed, violence, and other things. (There’s a pretty hefty list, but these are the ones that are fairly self-explanatory.) And the Bible also says that we protect ourselves from those things by disassociating ourselves from the practices and those who do them (see the last sentence of 2 Timothy 3:1-5 at http://tinyurl.com/64cur8 and 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 at http://tinyurl.com/6crvbw).
Regarding false worship:
- Treating traditions of men as doctrine, Mark 7:6-8 (http://tinyurl.com/6lse7b)
- Calling something a festival to God but not doing it how he wants, Exodus 32:4-10 (http://tinyurl.com/6mybql)
- Acceptable worship demands exclusive devotion to God, Deuteronomy 6:5-15 (http://tinyurl.com/6ksrgm)
I have more, but I’m out of time right now, and I’m sure MIKCTR will have some to share.
I love this! :O)
In the begining (Biblical perspective, nothing more….) God created an incredible place for the human family to live. Even today, as our world is being systematically destroyed, it is still an amazing and awe-inspiring place! The first humans were given a beautiful garden to live in and told to expand the borders of that garden until the entire world became a beautiful place where the human family could live in peace – IF they gave due respect for the life they were given to the one who gave it to them. It was THEIR choice. (The cool part about a creation with free will!) Chosing to decide for THEMSELVES rather than appreciating the fact that God 1. Provides them with what ONLY what is beneficial ,and 2. Has the ultimate RIGHT to make the determination of right and wrong AS their life-giver. They turned from a true and pure form of an acceptable worship of their creator based on obedience and began their own form of worship or “religion” (form of worship). Although the consequenses have been devistaing, they have also given us an opportunity to make better choices!
After they chose for themselves and turned their back on their life-giver, they produced imperfect children and the outcome of their self-imposed seperation from God became even more painfully apparent when their beloved child MURDERED his younger brother.
WE “hate” injustice – and should! It is part of being created in the image of God, who also “hates” injustice! The Bible talks about several things the God “hates” (Provrebs 6:16-19). Interestingly, these things are also laws that just about every nation on the face of the earth has incorporated into their societies as ‘givens’. If WE as imperfect human beings feel the pain of the injustices being done, how much MORE pain does he feel when they’re not only done, but they’re being done in his “name”, slandaring HIM?!
I’m not saying that God “hates” any particular people, tribe, tongue or nation! (Acts 10:35) Can you believe that he “hates” what he sees happening in the world today? How many people are starving this year – a record-breaking year of harvest on planet Earth? How many innocent people are dying because of man’s greed? How long can our home continue to survive when the wanton greed and ignorance IS the prevailing mind-set?
2 Timmothy 3:16, 17 states: “All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God myay be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” The Bible tells us to “Hate what is bad.” (Ps 97:10)
When people chose, as did our first parents, to practice things that he “hates”, are they not promoting “false worship” just as they did? What have been the outcomes? Can we TELL what would be “false” and what would be “true”? How can we tell? (Matthew 7:15-23)
On a side thought: Does anyone know of ANY nation has NOT been “a movement that strips humanity from designated groups of people and is founded on a thesis of hate”? (Eccesiastes 8:9) (I ask in all honesty and would welcome your take!
) I totally agree Hitler was a reeeeely bad person! How many people who backed him and his rampage were truely doing “the will of God” in light of Mt 7:15-23? How many “Christian” can rightfully claim to be followers of Christ when stating, “Heil Hitler (translation: “Salvation belongs to Hitler”) If this is something that makes US feel sick, can you imagine how someone with a perfect grasp of justice feels about it?
Looking forward to more conversation – and points of view ;o)
“Rock On”
One last thought:
tss, you mentioned “A movement that strips humanity from designated groups of people and is founded on a thesis of hate”.
Can you think of ANYTHING that is a closer example of what “False Worship” would be? Isn’t this EXACTLY what was started at the very beginning! How much more stripped of humanity could people experiance than to be born with the guarenteed prospect of growing old, feeling the pain of old age (not to mention what it does to the ego…), watching those you love die, seeing first hand the ravages of separation from God? Compare that with “True Worship”: Never getting old… meaningful work…. enjoying your family and knowing their safe, well fed, happy; exploring this most amazing planet home that was given to us and never dying? (Jn 17:3)
Ok. Thanks for that information. I find some elements confusing in that they seem to involve contradictions. For example – how can we at once be expected to separate ourselves from those who do acts that are “hated by God” while not judging those people, since judgement is left to God? Isn’t the act of separation ultimately an act which implies judgement? Isn’t telling the doer of a hated act, “Contact with you makes me unsafe,” a form of judgement?
In terms of the question of being stripped of humanity – the definition of humanity is to be human [as opposed to being seen as sub-human or as an animal, as those persecuted by the Nazi movement were, as those persecuted through slavery have been, as those persecuted by a apartheid systems have been, etc.].
MIKCTR, what you describe as being stripped of humanity:
How much more stripped of humanity could people experiance than to be born with the guarenteed prospect of growing old, feeling the pain of old age (not to mention what it does to the ego…), watching those you love die, seeing first hand the ravages of separation from God?
is actually a description of exactly what humanity is: to have all of these human experiences, to not have them be taken away from you because a doctrine is being acted out upon you as though you were an object, instead of an equal to all other people.
Humanity, according to this definition http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/humanity, is, at its simplest, the condition of being human – some of the elements of which include: growing and aging, feeling pain and loving, participating in the life cycles of those you love – yet each of these elements is present in what you suggest above to being “stripped of humanity”.
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tss
I think you answered your own question the way I would
) I don’t hate people. In fact, I love them! I feel very deeply for the plight of humanity – all humanity! However, I do not make my close associates people who practice the things God states he hates. I do not judge them for what they do as that is not the assignment I’ve been given as a Christian. I do not ignor them or treat them insolently. If I did, I would be proving false to MY claim as one who follows Christ. I will help them to the best of my ability if they are in need. I can show them how much God loves them and how much he is WILLING to forgive and forget a wrong course in life if they chose to follow it. However, like I said, I’m not going to ‘hang out’ with people who chose to ‘practice’ the ‘things’ that God hates. (1Corinthians 6:9-11)
Interestingly, “humanity”, at its simplest as the condition of being human, did NOT include growing old and dying. Growing, yes! Aging, yes! Feeling pain and loving? Absolutely! These things ARE being human at its simplest. The element that was added by disobedience that stripped us of ‘real’ humanity is the growing old and the decay that leads to death. Feeling the pain of losing someone you love, whether to a ravagine disease or due to a drunk driver, or the pain of being betrayed by the person who vowed to care for you forever is NOT something that makes us human – at its simplest. If these things were part of God’s purpose for humanity, he would be the one promising to strip us from it! (Revelation 21:3,4) Fortunately, that’s not the case – as far as what the Bible says…. ;o)
Thanks for that follow-up MIKCTR. For me, I think we’ve come to a stopping point. Again, thanks for participating in this dialogue. I appreciate your willingness to engage with such openness.
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