*tss*’s last blog post..make words with mouth

I think you answered your own question the way I would ) I don’t hate people. In fact, I love them! I feel very deeply for the plight of humanity – all humanity! However, I do not make my close associates people who practice the things God states he hates. I do not judge them for what they do as that is not the assignment I’ve been given as a Christian. I do not ignor them or treat them insolently. If I did, I would be proving false to MY claim as one who follows Christ. I will help them to the best of my ability if they are in need. I can show them how much God loves them and how much he is WILLING to forgive and forget a wrong course in life if they chose to follow it. However, like I said, I’m not going to ‘hang out’ with people who chose to ‘practice’ the ‘things’ that God hates. (1Corinthians 6:9-11)

Interestingly, “humanity”, at its simplest as the condition of being human, did NOT include growing old and dying. Growing, yes! Aging, yes! Feeling pain and loving? Absolutely! These things ARE being human at its simplest. The element that was added by disobedience that stripped us of ‘real’ humanity is the growing old and the decay that leads to death. Feeling the pain of losing someone you love, whether to a ravagine disease or due to a drunk driver, or the pain of being betrayed by the person who vowed to care for you forever is NOT something that makes us human – at its simplest. If these things were part of God’s purpose for humanity, he would be the one promising to strip us from it! (Revelation 21:3,4) Fortunately, that’s not the case – as far as what the Bible says…. ;o)

In terms of the question of being stripped of humanity – the definition of humanity is to be human [as opposed to being seen as sub-human or as an animal, as those persecuted by the Nazi movement were, as those persecuted through slavery have been, as those persecuted by a apartheid systems have been, etc.].

MIKCTR, what you describe as being stripped of humanity:
How much more stripped of humanity could people experiance than to be born with the guarenteed prospect of growing old, feeling the pain of old age (not to mention what it does to the ego…), watching those you love die, seeing first hand the ravages of separation from God?

is actually a description of exactly what humanity is: to have all of these human experiences, to not have them be taken away from you because a doctrine is being acted out upon you as though you were an object, instead of an equal to all other people.

Humanity, according to this definition http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/humanity, is, at its simplest, the condition of being human – some of the elements of which include: growing and aging, feeling pain and loving, participating in the life cycles of those you love – yet each of these elements is present in what you suggest above to being “stripped of humanity”.

*tss*’s last blog post..make words with mouth

Can you think of ANYTHING that is a closer example of what “False Worship” would be? Isn’t this EXACTLY what was started at the very beginning! How much more stripped of humanity could people experiance than to be born with the guarenteed prospect of growing old, feeling the pain of old age (not to mention what it does to the ego…), watching those you love die, seeing first hand the ravages of separation from God? Compare that with “True Worship”: Never getting old… meaningful work…. enjoying your family and knowing their safe, well fed, happy; exploring this most amazing planet home that was given to us and never dying? (Jn 17:3)

In the begining (Biblical perspective, nothing more….) God created an incredible place for the human family to live. Even today, as our world is being systematically destroyed, it is still an amazing and awe-inspiring place! The first humans were given a beautiful garden to live in and told to expand the borders of that garden until the entire world became a beautiful place where the human family could live in peace – IF they gave due respect for the life they were given to the one who gave it to them. It was THEIR choice. (The cool part about a creation with free will!) Chosing to decide for THEMSELVES rather than appreciating the fact that God 1. Provides them with what ONLY what is beneficial ,and 2. Has the ultimate RIGHT to make the determination of right and wrong AS their life-giver. They turned from a true and pure form of an acceptable worship of their creator based on obedience and began their own form of worship or “religion” (form of worship). Although the consequenses have been devistaing, they have also given us an opportunity to make better choices!

After they chose for themselves and turned their back on their life-giver, they produced imperfect children and the outcome of their self-imposed seperation from God became even more painfully apparent when their beloved child MURDERED his younger brother.

WE “hate” injustice – and should! It is part of being created in the image of God, who also “hates” injustice! The Bible talks about several things the God “hates” (Provrebs 6:16-19). Interestingly, these things are also laws that just about every nation on the face of the earth has incorporated into their societies as ‘givens’. If WE as imperfect human beings feel the pain of the injustices being done, how much MORE pain does he feel when they’re not only done, but they’re being done in his “name”, slandaring HIM?!

I’m not saying that God “hates” any particular people, tribe, tongue or nation! (Acts 10:35) Can you believe that he “hates” what he sees happening in the world today? How many people are starving this year – a record-breaking year of harvest on planet Earth? How many innocent people are dying because of man’s greed? How long can our home continue to survive when the wanton greed and ignorance IS the prevailing mind-set?

2 Timmothy 3:16, 17 states: “All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God myay be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” The Bible tells us to “Hate what is bad.” (Ps 97:10)

When people chose, as did our first parents, to practice things that he “hates”, are they not promoting “false worship” just as they did? What have been the outcomes? Can we TELL what would be “false” and what would be “true”? How can we tell? (Matthew 7:15-23)

On a side thought: Does anyone know of ANY nation has NOT been “a movement that strips humanity from designated groups of people and is founded on a thesis of hate”? (Eccesiastes 8:9) (I ask in all honesty and would welcome your take! ) I totally agree Hitler was a reeeeely bad person! How many people who backed him and his rampage were truely doing “the will of God” in light of Mt 7:15-23? How many “Christian” can rightfully claim to be followers of Christ when stating, “Heil Hitler (translation: “Salvation belongs to Hitler”) If this is something that makes US feel sick, can you imagine how someone with a perfect grasp of justice feels about it?

Looking forward to more conversation – and points of view ;o)

“Rock On”

Regarding hate:
- Proverbs 6:16-19 (http://tinyurl.com/27bhso)
- Psalm 5:4-5 (http://tinyurl.com/5ey94m)
- Psalm 45:6-7 (http://tinyurl.com/54wt6b)
- Malachi 2:16 (http://tinyurl.com/6enzag)

These make it clear that God loves as well as hates, and that he expects his followers to hate what he hates and love what he loves. Logically, it makes sense: you can’t love both good and evil. And you can’t please God if you love evil or are just indifferent to it (see Rev 3:16 at http://tinyurl.com/2e7s8z). So you must hate evil. And the Bible lays out very clearly what we are to consider as evil.

As humans, we don’t have the ability to read people’s hearts, so it’s not our job to judge or hate individuals (see Matthew 7:1 at http://tinyurl.com/2jvp4o); judgment and vengeance belong to God, not man (see Romans 12: 17-21 at http://tinyurl.com/68ldzl). But it is our job to hate what God tells us to hate (and I can provide scriptural references for all of these, but I don’t want to get crazy with links here): murder, sexual immorality, spiritism (false worship), idolatry (false worship), stealing, lying, greed, violence, and other things. (There’s a pretty hefty list, but these are the ones that are fairly self-explanatory.) And the Bible also says that we protect ourselves from those things by disassociating ourselves from the practices and those who do them (see the last sentence of 2 Timothy 3:1-5 at http://tinyurl.com/64cur8 and 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 at http://tinyurl.com/6crvbw).

Regarding false worship:
- Treating traditions of men as doctrine, Mark 7:6-8 (http://tinyurl.com/6lse7b)
- Calling something a festival to God but not doing it how he wants, Exodus 32:4-10 (http://tinyurl.com/6mybql)
- Acceptable worship demands exclusive devotion to God, Deuteronomy 6:5-15 (http://tinyurl.com/6ksrgm)

I have more, but I’m out of time right now, and I’m sure MIKCTR will have some to share.

In terms of the on-going question of Hitler’s relevance here: My perspective remains unshaken…

There is a definite and significant difference between
a.] a movement that strips humanity from designated groups of people and is founded on a thesis of hate, and
b.] the celebrations and other manifestations of religious and/or cultural practices that could be considered “false worship” in terms of the tenets of any given religion.

With respect to this passage from MIKCTR:

Hitler may be pretty hated on a global basis by the vast majority of mankind, but imagine how hated false worship is to the Creator on a universal basis. Hitler was merely a small part of a much larger picture….(Rev 18 (note the last verse)).

I’d like to add that I simply and adamantly disagree that human beings’ hate of Hitler can be balanced against God’s hate of false worship. [The fact that the notion that God "hates" sends shivers down my spine is something I only slightly leave aside here. With all due respect, I think that when we allow ourselves to imagine God as a being that harbors HATE, we are making a very serious and painful mistake.] Please help me see this more clearly if I have misunderstood… If there is a verse from the Bible that you are referring to with respect to God & hate & false worship, I’d be interested to see the verse.

Rock on, all.

*tss*’s last blog post..make words with mouth

“But I still think Hitler is an extreme example, if for no other reason than it’s unlikely that any significant number of people would agree to a celebration on his birthday.”

If something like this would be so unacceptable and distasteful (as it obviously is…), why would the celebration of a powerless pagan diety the userps the honor of the Creator be ANY less unacceptable or distasteful? Is it that Hitler’s birthday is still too new history for people to find the celebration thereof acceptable, or is it too easy to forget the real meaning behind the origns of the false gods and how the worship of them affects the true God? Is the celebration of anything on April 12 UNacceptable because of it’s association while December 25 is – regardless of it’s association?

Hitler may be pretty hated on a global basis by the vast majority of mankind, but imagine how hated false worship is to the Creator on a universal basis. Hitler was merely a small part of a much larger picture….(Rev 18 (note the last verse)).

Just food for thought. You know me…..

I, personally, do not have a problem with anything anyone does. There are things people do that I don’t like, but it’s not up to me have a problem with it (I’ve got enouh of my own… ;o). Globally accepted facts show where most of the celebrations mankind celebrates come from. As Kristin pointed out from the Bible: “…believers cannot drink from the cup of demons and the cup of God at the same time (see 1 Corinthians 10:20-22) and… true and false worship can have no common ground (see 2 Corinthians 6:15, 16).” The nation of Israel had a “fesival to the LORD” and were punnished severly for it because HOW they did it was absolutely unacceptable to him (Gen. 32:5,9). Christians are told to ‘keep on making sure of what is acceptable’. Now, whether one chooses to believe what the Bible states or not is absolutely up to them!

Like I said, I didn’t mean to offend. Sometime, however, a veiwpoint of another person can be offensive – even when it’s not meant to be. I chose not to be offended at other’s perspectives. I’ll take what they have to say into consideration, look at the resoning for the viewpoint and either agree or disagree. If you do not agree with what I say, that is way cool with me. I’m not offended if anyone chooses to celebrate ANY holiday )

I really appreciate your frank observations and penetrating questions. Thanks for an excellent discussion that is helping me to more clearly articulate my feelings on this matter. I’m glad what I’m saying makes sense, and I appreciate your suggestion that I consider navigating these issues more exactly. Navigating my life is a big part of what I hope to do with this blog, so you can expect to see more of that in the future.

You’re right that what I described is my experience with holidays in my family and those people around me in my life, family and otherwise. I recognize that it may not be how everyone celebrates Thanksgiving, but it’s how those people do, and how the holiday is portrayed in mainstream media and entertainment as well, so I know others can relate to that depiction. Although it may not encompass everyone’s traditions, that’s not the point of this discussion, so I don’t want to get into that. ANY celebration of the Thanksgiving holiday is not something I’ll participate in or contribute to, so in terms of my point, it’s not relevant. But I hear you, I do.

I’m not trying to interfere with what other people do; I simply don’t want to be part of it. This is MY moral choice, just like with the leather issue I mentioned in an earlier comment. If you don’t want to wear leather, no problem. I’m not going to try to force them to wear animal products. Or if the roles are reversed, I’m not going to berate them or, worse, damage their property because I disagree with the fact that THEY wear animal products. It’s their choice. And I’m not asking people to stop doing it. I’m asking them to stop involving me. Me not doing Thanksgiving or whatever else doesn’t mean I’m opposed to family gatherings. It means I’m opposed to holidays. There’s a difference. I know you recognize that, but I feel a need to assert it clearly and explicitly. They are not the same thing

Unless someone presses the issue, I don’t generally bring up the reasons behind my refusal to participate in holiday celebrations. Generally, I say something like, “That is so kind of you, but I’m going to pass. I actually don’t celebrate holidays. But I hope you enjoy your time off and get to spend some good time with your family.” Or whatever is appropriate to how they spend their holiday time. With most people, that’s sufficient. No harm, no foul, no hurt feelings.

I was trying to think of another religious example that might be more familiar to the general public. Here’s what I came up with: Imagine, for instance, the first time you’re invited to someone’s house for dinner, they serve ham and you don’t eat pork for religious reasons. They didn’t know so they had no idea, you explain briefly that you keep Kosher and help yourself to the side dishes, no problem. But they roll their eyes and sigh about it. And then the next time they invite you over, they serve ham again. And you’re the only guest. Maybe they forgot, no problem, you eat sides again and it’s fine, and when they ask why you’re not eating the ham, you politely remind them that you don’t eat pork because it’s not Kosher. But it happens the time after that, too, and again they say, “Why aren’t you eating the ham?” and sigh and roll their eyes and slam the plates together as they clear the table. And then the next time, there’s no pork in sight, but the hostess pulls you aside afterward and confesses that she snuck bacon into the cream of potato soup because it’s so small and it tastes so good, and you don’t mind, right?

Of course you would mind. I would, anyway. When someone acknowledges a belief that is central to your being and then systematically blows it off and acts like you’re an inconvenience and you need to change, that’s not cool. It may be acknowledging, but it’s not accepting or respecting. It’s not even tolerating, in my opinion. Disagreeing, asking questions, expressing frustration, not understanding: all okay. Deliberately and forcefully ignoring others’ explicit requests and beliefs: not okay. If you don’t eat pork and I know you don’t eat pork and I continually try to serve you pork anyway, I don’t get to have hurt feelings about it when you turn me down, bring your own food to my house, or stop coming over entirely.

Although the first and last few paragraphs about this post are about my mom since she’s the one who raised the question, the post as a whole and the issue of repeated invitations isn’t about her specifically. It’s about my experience of family members and others acknowledging my beliefs and steamrolling them because it’s inconvenient for them in some way. It’s about other people, family and strangers alike, taking personal affront to the statement, “No thanks, I don’t celebrate holidays,” and trying to bully me either implicitly or explicitly to do it anyway. And it’s not limited to this situation. People do it all the time, with religious beliefs, political opinions, parenting choices, social behaviors, etc. Saying you recognize something and actually recognizing it are very, very different, but somehow that has become lost to us.